Last month I went to Toronto, CA to get cranial adjustments by Dr. Roger Turner
He found several misalignment in my skull, here’s his notes
“You started with bilateral forceps indents in the frontal bones. The right nasal bone was deviated to the right. The septum was deviated to the left. The sphenoid was lateral to the right. The zygomatic was anterior on the left. Your C1 was lateral on the left and C2 was rotated to the left.”
He used pressure from his hands to correct some of these, what was most noticeable was my nose from front view became straighter and less deviated to the side.
His thoughts on cranial bone is that they all move and they are a lot more malleable than people think because it is alive. Not only does he claim to move the bones along the sutures, but even change the hard parts of the bone through pressure from his finger tips. He seemed to have smoothed out few areas where I had tiny dents from forceps.
He shared some profound stories of working on mentally challenged & paraplegic kids that began walking after the cranial adjustments.
He personally wasn’t a fan of NCR when I asked, because he believes those balloon inflation on the sphenoid is not specific enough.
For example for my case, my sphenoid was shifted to one side which he said that the balloon inflations would be too general to correct.
After experiencing these treatments, my conclusion is that these treatments are great for those that endured physical trauma to the head.
I’m not claiming this is a miracle treatment that will address all the issues with the skull though.
If anything it opened my eyes even more to the fact that the skull bones are susceptible to change through external forces.
You can find his office here: http://www.turnerwellness.com/cranial-adjusting.html
Cranial dystrophy in my opinion has been caused by bad posture, where the bone in the skull has changed shape & position from the ideal over long periods of time.
To change the shape of the skull bone will take much longer than few cranial adjustments.
Yes I believe all of this helps in some way, but what I feel is making the big difference for me at the moment is still.
Proper head & tongue posture.
Its been short 3 months since the realization I had that my head was always tilted back, I’ve been consciously correcting that and I definitely see more improvements in the last 3 months than quite sometime.
Not just the tongue exerting way different forces now but I feel there is even a difference in how the force of gravity is exerted on all the skull bones. & I don’t doubt that it plays a big role because that’s long term force.
In Children, Dr. Turner talked about some mentally challenged kids having elongated, narrow faces. And how he goes about correcting that is pretty much squishing the head down from the front.
So you can imagine how much gravity has to cause the skull bone to squish down, if the head is placed properly above the shoulders. (its pretty difficult to explain in words)
When you lift the head up and do the chin tuck, it also gives your tongue opportunity to drive against the palate because now you essentially drove the entire maxilla back into the throat. And this is making all the difference.
With this head posture, which stretches the entire spine and neck. Its as if my entire face collapsed inwards, but with the tongue still postured in the roof of the mouth, I can feel the dramatic difference in the force exerted on the whole face from the tongue and there have been moments where I can feel some movements in the zygomatic area, especially my right side which was the more collapsed side.
Very easy way to demonstrate this is this.
Swallow your saliva correctly, using the Mew push swallow. Which is you close your mouth completely, teeth together. And ensuring your lips & cheeks remain inactive. You swallow, you will feel the tongue roll across the roof of the mouth and back of the tongue lift up into the back of the throat / soft palate area.
Do the swallow with your head tilted back and your chin brought forwards.
Then, do the swallow with your head held up (almost tilted down) and chin tucked.
Notice the drastic difference in the force exerted by the tongue on the roof of your palate.
By adopting proper head posture, it drives the whole front part of the palate backwards so there’s less space for the tongue length wise, at the same time, strangely it might lift the back part of the mouth up slightly.
Or its causing the entire palate to shift back?
Whatever it is, you can feel a lot more of the tongue make contact and exert alot more force on the whole palate, when the held is held corrected and chin is tucked.
This is essentially the true position of the maxilla. For the longest time, my maxilla was placed way too forward relative to my throat/tongue because I was adopting the wrong head posture.
With correct head posture, your almost rotating the entire head forwards. And this causes the brow to come forwards (top of the eye area), and the bottom of the eye area to slant back slightly, but I believe as the tongue drives the mid face forwards, and causes the lower eye area to come forwards in that head posture, it will then cause for greater eye support from the top and bottom.
When looking at all the facial features, like nose or forehead, we sometimes see different angles, such as sloping foreheads and we think that’s just the difference in genetics, but I’m beginning to realize its important to ask, what the head posture is of that person first before we study any facial features. Because the head posture can deceive us all. It can make the maxilla look much more forward then it really is, it can make the forehead look like its sloping back when its just the entire head that’s been tilted back.
When I take this into consideration, when studying faces, things are making a lot more sense now. Why certain people have certain shapes of the head, there seems to be a big divide between those that hold their head up right, almost slanting forwards, and those that held their head backwards.
The good looking people all hold their head slanting forwards.
The above is a pretty good example of what I’m talking about.
As she talks yes, sometimes she will lift her head back, but her head will always come back to a position where the ocipital bone is lifted and neck is stretched straight above the shoulders. The forehead is straight and the entire maxilla / palate is on a downward angle.
If there was some instrument that can measure the forces on the facial bones, this would be the head position that would exert the most compressing force on the mid face. Because the tongue & masseter is exerting upwards force and the neck muscle and weight of the head is putting the downward force.
Above would be obvious examples of faces that are tilted back. Which will definitely slowly shift the maxilla down and back because our tongues are only so long in length. If head is tilted back, parts of the tongue will leave the palate and the maxilla will collapse down and back.
Notice how the back of the head is going backwards in those guys, and with the good looking ladies above the back of the head is not going back but rather lifted straight upwards. There’s no curvature in the neck.
Not correcting the head posture first I really do feel is a huge factor that can mitigate your tongue posture / oral myology efforts.
Claiming, im thinking of getting surgery to advance my maxilla forward. So in that regards, im wondering, would you ever consider getting surgery and do you think it helps
Claiming, I was looking back at my old pics from 2010-11 and ive noticed my jaw is receding back into my face. Is that possible? Because looking back at my old videos my jaw was projecting like jutting out forward horisontially. Now my jaw seems like it moved back into my face and is growing vertically. Also mouth seema smaller like my pallete is getting narrower. Is it possible that once your jaw starts growing vertically you lose the forwardness of your jaw like it regresses. I dont know how to quite put this into words but i hope you can break this down for me.
Without supporting forces from tongue, the tension from gravity, skin and muscles will drag maxilla downwards and into your face / towards brains over time. Because maxilla determines how forward mandible can sit, recessing maxilla will push mandible back too. But your mandible can go backwards only a certain amount before it runs out of space, so it has to start rotating downwards in an attempt to maintain your bite. Narrow palate contributes to this downward rotation of mandible too.
I doubt any real growth is happening either way, it’s merely the bones shifting around. But that’s just my guess.
From what I’ve seen, people seem to have different types of dystrophy going on. Some have palates that are decently wide and forward, but are positioned so low that their smile is half gum half teeth. Others may have beautifully compact midfaces but with narrow palate and no forward projection. The unlucky ones have both narrow palate and long face.
Do you have any guess what may have caused your face change so much? Also at what ages you went through these changes?
Is CATS something that could in theory be self-performed? Are you allowed to elaborate on the process?
Nice to see you posting again. It would be interesting if you could write an update on how you feel internally, because the more I chew the gum, sit up straight, etc. the uglier I feel. Despite having before and after pictures comparing now to 6 months ago, the improvements are very noticeable and I do look a lot better, I feel as though I look worse.
It makes sense that the overwhelming majority of people who go into face remodeling go into it from a place of self hatred, so even getting results isn’t really going to help that, since it’s an internal issue. It would be nice to hear anyone else’ take on this.
I feel just about out of options here. Who else has the Gokhale chair, and if so, how are the effects on your face when sitting properly? I’ve been using it with the full upright posture/chin tuck for almost a month and the results are minimal. By “results”, I don’t mean actual facial development, as that’ll take a long time. I mean the bare essentials of actually feeling pressure in my face. There are times when I can feel upward force happening, and other times when it feels like I’m purposely squinting my eyes to pretend that it’s working. I have such difficulty doing the oral posture, especially when sitting like this, and swallowing food while this upright doesn’t happen. There seemingly is enough room for my tongue, and then sometimes it feels like I’m trying to cram it in my mouth to fit. (I’ve never had tongue between teeth posture or anything like that, so I believe it does fit in my mouth) Most of the time I try a push swallow, I feel no “wave” motion of my tongue, and no suction pressure afterwards. Of course, I just so happen to feel more of it this second while typing…still, it’s not consistent and always feels like I can’t have passive pressure going on without thinking about it constantly. Maybe that’s just because my tongue is so inactive that using it at all feels like strain. I’m pretty sure I don’t have tongue tie, despite this issue and being unable to swallow food properly. I was watching a guy on YouTube the other day who definitely has tongue tie, as the front of his tongue was webbed down tight in his mouth and it’s very visible when he speaks. When sitting properly, it can feel better to wear headphones for even more downward pressure. They weigh two pounds and the resulting upward force can feel better if I manage to get lucky with mouth posture being able to work. Other than that, I can’t think of anything else that helps out.
Another issue I seem to be alone with is being unable to chew gum. I brought this up long ago and hate mentioning it because I know it makes me sound like I have special needs, but every damn time I try to chew mastic gum, small fragments of it find their way down my throat. Even when I go without swallowing my saliva for several minutes and obsessively fish around my teeth, some still gets wrapped around my back teeth and I proceed to swallow it. This leads to having gum stuck in my throat for about 5 days, which can be incredibly painful, and feel like I’ve been punched in the neck. After dozens of times of thinking I’m just being stupid with how I’m chewing or wondering if it’s psychosomatic and I am just making it up (which leads into me trying and swallowing it again), I have to quit trying. I’ve wasted probably up to $150 on gum and have no results to speak of because I keep choking on it like an idiot, even though almost a year of trying has shown it’s unavoidable for me. It’s legitimately painful and I imagine unhealthy to repeatedly swell up/irritate my throat. My wisdom teeth have grown in fine, so I have no explanation for why this is happening.
All in all, I can’t see any solution in sight for me. Some posters have said that sitting properly puts pressure in their midface, but I feel it so slightly and sporadically that I must be doing it wrong although I’m constantly tweaking my head position to make sure. I can sometimes feel more of a difference when sitting on the floor, but it’s so painful and unrealistic to expect that to be a habit beyond 20 minutes a day. I’ve read every article on here + most premium posts and still feel like the dumbest person here because everyone else is apparently getting something I’m not.
Something kind of random I thought of last night, though maybe it’s been mentioned before on this site. For those of us who had orthodontic work done, is the consensus that both the braces and cervical headgear are the main things that screwed us over? I was looking at my before and after pics yesterday just to look at my old hairstyle, and noticed that for all of my complaining, my profile shot after treatment was not as horrendous as I thought. Aside from being a little overweight, my face still had a bit of natural fullness. Sure, I didn’t look better than before: my teeth were retracted, I had forward head posture, and the overall result is pretty “meh”, but I look way uglier in profile now than I did in 2010. What happened was that my treatment was mostly focused on closing my bite rather than crooked teeth, but even after treatment it wasn’t fully closed. Despite this, I was given clear retainers (the ones that look like mouthguards) and those opened my bite even more and my upper teeth looked really weird. After a year and a half of this, I went back and asked for a wired retainer. This helped close my bite, but oh my God, it pushed my maxilla back so much. I wore this thing for about 3.5 years and the effect on my face is quite noticeable. I believe this was the most detrimental part of the whole treatment. Comparing the pressure of cervical headgear to a wired retainer is like wearing a thick winter jacket compared to wearing a straight jacket. I’d like to hear anyone else’s experience with retainers and if they further ruined your looks or not. Years ago, I was at some guy’s house and saw his retainer case. He said he never wore it and I was thinking “you’ll be sorry”. Turns out he looks pretty good now and my flat face looks like my teeth have been sucked out with a vacuum, so joke’s on me.
Also, I doubt anybody was waiting for me to post an update about healing my cavities, but I said I would so here it is. No results yet, and it feels like my whole mouth is turning on me. I’ve been mega-dosing vitamins for two months and have nothing to show for it except explosive diarrhea from too much vitamin C. TDT asked about mega-dosing vitamin K2 months back and I forgot to say anything. I’ve been taking it for over a month, 15 mg a day with about 4000 IU of vitamin D, 10,000 IU of vitamin A, and heavy milk drinking. Because MK-4 K2 has such a short half-life, I’ve just started taking this whole combo when I am on the verge of falling asleep just in case tooth healing can happen while I’m asleep and the vitamins are still potent, as opposed to them kind of doing nothing while awake during the day. I don’t know if that’s sound logic or not. As a last ditch effort, I’ve also started taking cell salts every few hours and introduced binaural beats just for good measure, in case it helps. If anybody has somehow discovered the magic cure recently, please share it because my mouth is turning into Chernobyl.
Well as far as I know, K2 is a fat-soluble vitamin and therefore stored for a long time. The short half life just means that once some K2 is released from the stores it is quickly used by your body, whereas some other nutrient may stay longer in the blood stream. It’s probably not even necessary to take K2 every day, or at specific times… but that’s just my guess.
I’ve been following a personalized version of Dr Ellie’s Zellie Mouthcare System (you can find this on google), including oil pulling, lots of xylitlol, extensive flossing & brushing and using pre & post brushing mouthwash (salt water and some pepsodent mouthwash). My teeth have become extremely clean and smooth. However, almost every space between upper and lower molars has painful spots when I brush, which means that the cavities haven’t really gotten any better. Since the cavities are in between of teeth they don’t matter much in daily life, but still it’s not that fun being aware of how damaged teeth I have and constantly worry whether they’re going to get worse, as you probably understand.
About mewing and swallowing, in my opinion it sounds like you’re doing everything correctly. Neck & head posture should matter more than what you’re sitting on. When the chin is properly tucked in and head held high, you should be able to relax your whole skull including jaw and have the tongue push against palate.
It probably depends on your individfual structure, but personally I get most feeling by trying to drive the tip of my tongue through the little ridges behind the upper front teeth, which tends to raise posterior tongue against soft palate too. I push the tip of my tongue more forwards than upwards. This is also the direction I push towards when I swallow.
I think it’s not necessary to feel any sensations in your face. Experiencing them could also be a matter of awareness. For example, I notice that when I smoke weed or meditate deeply I become more aware of my body. In this state mewing results in this warm and tingly pressure all over my face that I can’t achieve normally. Additionally, both activities relax muscles, and it sounds reasonable to assume that it’s easier to get maxilla move forward when it isn’t surrounded by tense musculature. So you may benefit from learning to relax your face before pushing with tongue.
You have a very natural way of making your situation humorous. I admire that because it is a stuggle for most people and will undermine progress.
What about a compromise with the special gum, since it is a problem and help your cavities at the same time. You can buy “recaldent” gum on Amazon from Korea. The best was Trident Xtra Care but it has been discontinued. The Korean gum has a hard shell coating and 2 grams of carbs from xylitol, so 1/2 teaspoon of xylitol for a tiny piece of gum!
I am thinking about ordering from Japan because their advertised recaldent gum has more of the calcium mix.
Anyway, some chewing is better than none and there are a lot of studies that show significantly fewer cavities in schoolchildren who chew the gum as compared to the control group. The studies I have read are in Japan and Australia. This information can be googled for verification
Of course, here in the states one must have a prescription for the recaldent paste. I guess dentists want the monopoly on anything that would reduce our dependence.
I would like to clarify in my first paragraph, that keeping a sense of humor is a struggle for most, especially when we care about the outcome. I become so serious that it undermines my progress.
This oriental clinic that is huge in Korea is more about fixing asymmetry in the face instead of bringing the maxilla forward, but it pretty much follows all the principles that’s been posted in this site so far, it’s pretty interesting. There are tons of before and after pics, and the amazing thing is that there seems to be improvements in only 2 months or so. I’m thinking about taking the plunge and book a session (equivalent of about $120 a session, 10 weeks are recommended, apparently)
http://resam.co.kr/main_1001.php
These are some exercises for self-improvement in facial asymmetry. Instead of targeting one area, this site targets the neck muscles, facial muscles, jaws and even hips(there aren’t any self exercises for hips, but it’s part of the procedure).
http://resam.co.kr/main_1007.php
They don’t mention anything about the maxilla or tongue posture, but the takeaway I got from here is that facial changes can be had in adults as well.
I just joined so hope you are still around…
The series of frontal face photos toward the bottom of page look like they have had their cheek fat pads removed. Not bone remodeling. Of course I cannot read the captIons but buccal/cheek fat removal is a simple 1/2 hour procedure with local anesthetic and only one incision, inside the mouth. The cheek fat comes out in one piece. It is popular for people who wish to have a more “sculpted” face.
Cautions exist because much of the facial fat is lost as we grow old so there is a risk of looking awful someday.
If you look at before/after pics of cheek fat pad removal, it changes the shape of the face, often profoundly.
HEY CLAIMING I THINK YOU MISSED SOME IMPORTANT TOPICS ABOUT THE MAXILLA. NAMELY NOSE BREATHING TO ENSURE THAT YOUR TONGUE IS ALWAYS ON THE SOFT PALATE, SLEEPING ON YOUR BACK AND RAW MILK.
TO ENSURE THAT YOU CAN SLEEP ON YOUR BACK WITHOUT SNORING (AND HAVE YOUR TONGUE PRESSING AGAINST THE MAXILLAR IN YOUR SLEEP) YOU MUST BREATHE THROUGH YOUR NOSE 24/7. A GOOD BOOK ON THIS IS ‘THE OXYGEN ADVANTAGE’. ALSO BREATHING THROUGH YOUR NOSE EXPANDS YOUR NASAL CAVITIES AND SHIFTS THE MAXILLAR FORWARD.
SLEEPING ON YOUR BACK: IN A PREVIOUS ARTICLE, YOU NOTED THAT THE EGYPTIANS HAD A MUCH BETTER FACIAL SHAPE THAN WE DO. I LOOKED INTO IT AND TURNS OUT THAT EGYPTIANS ALWAYS SLEPT ON THEIR BACKS. THAT’S WHAT THEIR PILLOWS WERE FOR. OF COURSE BY THE TIME CLEOPATRA WAS AROUND, SOFT PILLOWS HAD BEEN INTRODUCED AND PEOPLE STARTED SLEEPING ON THEIR SIDES. WHERE IS YOUR TONGUE WHEN YOU SLEEP ON YOUR SIDE???? NOT ON THE SOFT PALATE OR WHERE IT SHOULD BE. SLEEPINGUYEN ON YOUR BACK IS THE BEST FOR YOU, BETTER FACIAL COMPLEXION AND ALL THAT. IT TAKES WORK. YOU WON’T FALL ASLEEP ON YOUR FIRST NIGHT AND YOU HAVE TO STRETCH YOUR HAMSTRINGS AND HIP FLEXORS BEFORE BED. I RECOMMEND 15 MINUTES, OR ELSE THEY’LLOYD PULL YOUR LOWER BACK OUT AND IT’S GONNA HURT.
Finally diet. You guys need to Google Weston A. Price. He’s a dentist from the 1800’s who noted that tons of societies had better facial health than the Europeans. They ate protein rich food like raw milk and organ meats. Weston noted that when children started drinking raw milk, their maxilar bones grew about 2-3{ae022d2295c0485893c83c8425b5bfafafba893c2d19b1bb9bc4c7c9bf3eeba6}. Which is a huge indication of how good it is for you. If there’s any americans reading this, hook me up with some raw milk, because in Canada, its dead out illegal.
Anyhow if you’ve mastered the mew swallow and gum chewing, move onto the nasal breathing, sleeping on your back and eating right. You should see faster results and its all free.
Bethekind@gmail.com
Sleeping on your back is great if your maxilla is well positioned in the first place. For me and many others with recessed maxillas, it’s impossible and leads to severe snoring and sleep apnea, as the tongue blocks the already narrow airway.
Unless I’m sleeping almost completely upright, sleeping on back is just not going to happen without first having optimal facial structure. No type of pillow or no pillow helps.
If you read ‘oxygen advantage’, this guy found out the more he breathed through his nose, the easier it got. If you read no other book this year, third dimension tourist this is the one i recommend. He has breathing exercises and everything. Its changed my life a ton
On a fundamental level I agree with you. I’ve been breathing through my nose for half a decade now and during that time my nasal turbinates have cleared up a lot
However, nasal turbinates are not the issue when you try to sleep on your back with a recessed maxilla. It’s the actual facial structure that is the root of the problem.
See, as you probably know, in terms of optimal breathing recessed maxilla means two things:
1) the empty space above soft palate (near the beginning of nasal turbinates) is narrow, because the soft palate is closer to the back of your throat than it should ideally be.
2) Posterior tongue can’t position itself far enough away from the throat
When laying on one’s back, this means that every exhale causes the tongue & soft palate rise to block the nasal airways, leading to snoring / sleep apnea. If maxilla is very recessed, it’s next to impossible to find a sweetspot where the tongue is simultaneously resting against the palate and not blocking the airways. Perhaps using many pillows to elevate the upper body to a near upright position would help.
But thanks for the book recommendation anyways, I’ll check it out.
Third Dimension, Can you send me ur email at dood.sweet@yandex.com
Want to keep contact some of the more serious members here
i cant find anywhere else online an answer, if i have a permanent retainer after orthodontic treament, is there a chance for facial change ?
is there a way to contact cp without paying 100$? i only have this one question and cant seem to find answer anywhere.
Hi there!
I have been practicing the methods mentioned on this wonderful website (thank you so much claiming power & the community), and it’s been about 8 months of trying to keep tongue on the roof of the mouth as well as breathing through my nose and sitting upright…. I must say I can definitely see changes…. (my main issue was severe asymmetry).
BUT!!! I was NOT seeing any changes when I still had the permanent retainer on my bottom teeth.
After a few weeks of trying to mew, my bottom teeth were getting so sore! It was weird… I could feel a ton of tension on my permanent retainer. One night while laying in my bed, practicing the mew… lol… I felt the retainer begin to loosen. I continued mewing…. Legit two days later it fell completely out of my mouth!
~
I think that having a permanent retainer prevents your teeth from moving… which includes the journey they would make as you begin to mew, begin to change your facial shape, widening your arches and such…
I was horrified that my bottom teeth would then become super crooked… alas it’s been about 4 months since then and so far no crooked teeth. I definitely think they have shifted (in a positive way), but they still have a ways to go imho.
Hope this helps!! Merry Christmas y’all! Happy holidays everyone else!
This may be a problem for someone else, so I’ll share. After many months of looking in the mirror and the webcam, I never noticed until yesterday that I’ve always kept my head slightly tilted to the side; so the side of my face that is asymmetrical and has more fat is on an angle (hard to phrase through words, but I’m sure you get what I mean). It goes without saying, but the websites I read all say that if your head is tilted, your facial bones will develop unevenly.
Same.
I think years of computer use may have something to do with it. Using mouse is such an asymmetrical movement for the body, kind of like playing tennis or hockey ( passionate tennis and hockey players often get scoliosis if they don’t put enough work into maintaining the balance of their bodies). I often find myself leaning and twisting body to one side when I’m on computer, and it’s always towards the same side. It should not be unreasonable to assume that over years this can cause asymmetry, especially during adolescence.
Personally I was 5 years old when I got my first computer and I’m 24 now. I spent my teenage years with Runescape and World of Warcraft, neglecting pretty much every aspect of my health.
Hey japanophile, could you email me so I got your email? dood.sweet@yandex.com
I want to keep contact with the long term more serious posters here
If one could fit their wisdom teeth in their maxilla, does that indicate that their maxilla is forward?
Hi CP,
I’ve been practicing proper tongue posture, swollowing and head posture for a couple months and really felt my upper teeth moving forward. I just started my invisalign treatment today, not only to align the teeth but also to widen the jaw slightly, pushing my upper jaw up.
When practicing proper tongue posture I feel like the invisalign tray is preventing the teeth from pushing forward. Do you think my maxilla can still go forward and up if I continue my efforts even with invisalign?
Thank you,
R
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Find out how I got accelerated results in one year
I wanted to ask those here, how has lying down for extended periods of time affected your face? I’ve been sick for months and bedridden along with that. I’m very worried how this may have affected my face in the long term since the past few years.
It makes me wonder if doing something along the lines of CATS will be worth it in my case.